dont reset the times on parkour revamp please

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by hmj, Jun 15, 2020.

  1. hmj

    hmj вечная весна Donator

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    upload_2020-6-14_23-30-18.png
    please... don't. if your goal is to keep the top times legit, don't reset the whole leaderboards in maps where we know that the WR and most of top 10 is legit. it's important to keep the historical leaderboards and the leaderboards right now are an accumulation of 4+ yrs of hard work by talented people and it's likely that these times will not be matched should a parkour reset happen + it will feel kinda cheap to get a wr or top 10 on a resetted leaderboard

    however remove the current end and jungle WRs tho pls :) they're literally not possible
     
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  2. Username

    Username Donator

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    I would love for the leaderboards to reset, simply because it would allow me to get world records and places on leaderboards which I currently am not able to. At the same time though, I also don't think it would be beneficial overall for them to completely reset.
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    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
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  3. Apex_SkyShadow

    Apex_SkyShadow My Doggo & Pupper = Best Doggo & Pupper Combo Staff Member Mod+

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    While it would be sad to see those times go, that's just what happens if it were to reset. Since it's been 4 years, I'd think it would be appropriate to do something similar to what oitc had before it was moved into the lobby (a list of previous top players in the lobby). This means that all the times will still be remembered and maybe some of the older maps can finally be rotated out to make way for some newer ones.
     
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  4. Trevor

    Trevor Builder Donator

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    I fucking agree with this so much, this man is a GENIUS
     
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  5. hmj

    hmj вечная весна Donator

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    yes! i love doing the exact same thing as someone else 5 seconds slower while putting not even a tenth of the effort into it yet still being #1 upload_2020-6-14_23-46-57.jpeg
    are you seriously comparing a historical speedrunning leaderboard to OITC? these are two completely different things that should NOT be compared in any way. high score leaderboard =/=/=/=/=/=/= "most wins" leaderboard (or whatever it was)

    either way i think you're right that if they get reset it should be remembered but it just makes no sense to not keep them on the LB as is

    when the times were reset in 2016 it was because they added the checkpoint system which inherently made a bunch of times impossible (mine2, clouds, nethercastle). this was a necessary addition to the parkour system and completely changed the way we see do parkour (and either way, there was barely any high-level competition back then). but why not just add the new anti cheat stuff? why remove the times? are they suddenly invalid because of a new AC?

    what will make the current times invalid? why should a lot of current VERIFIED world records get off of the LB?

    @Ezzerland please don't rush this update and let us know ALL that you plan on doing weeks in advance if it involves tampering with the leaderboards in such a massive manner. i know i am taking this very seriously but what we have here is a very complex and optimized historical leaderboard that is getting serious changes to it and i don't want it to go all away like that without the community precisely knowing that it's all about.
     
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  6. Ezzerland

    Ezzerland Staff Member Manager

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    Let's set some information straight:
    • Parkour does not have a planned update. It's something that I'd like to see updated and want to work on but do not currently have time.
    • I have been gathering feedback and ideas and toying with theories, but that's all they are at this point. Please feel free to suggest ideas if you have some btw :)
    • That quote to which you're basing this whole thread on says "is likely to" because when resets happen, that's common. This is strictly theoretical at this point and I think I've been far more open about upcoming resets and server plans than anyone in any staff position at any point in the past. Just ask the OITC, Factions, or even Kitpvp communities. We've literally had group chats on discord to openly discuss suggestions because I openly care about what the community wants.
    • I'd be willing to bet that Muff, holder of almost all world records on main maps right now, would not at all have a problem with lb times being reset and re-obtaining them.
    Who knows? What if Checkpoints are redone? What if maps are no longer classed as Easy, Medium and Hard but rather re-done based on different types of competitive parkour? What if we want to implement a shadow that performs the #1 time run that you can run against? What if the new AC checks make it so that some barriers/checkpoints/things that make maps currently awkward get changed? What if we suddenly require What if What if, what if, what if?

    It seems like this tangent is a bridge that should be crossed when there is some semblance of an idea of what a reset might entail. For right now, I'm focused on skyblock, factions, kitpvp and the next prison resets. I'll worry about parkour updates when there is actually a reason to worry.
    I hear this
     
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  7. hmj

    hmj вечная весна Donator

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    If I may, I'd like to refer to these two suggestions I made 2016 that would help stir competition without rewriting the leaderboards.
    https://itsjerryandharry.com/threads/ranked-parkour-system.100087/
    https://itsjerryandharry.com/threads/parkour-small-improvements-to-the-checkpoint-system.109031/
    I'd like it if you could at least read it and take a look at it in case it ends up being worthy.

    I know this is not the point of you senidng me this list of questions, but i will respond to all of your "what if" questions with solutions for every one of them.
    1- I don't know why checkpoints would be redone but it should only reset the LB if it affects the fastest possible route.
    2- Doesn't affect leaderboard placements.
    3- Shadow would be the best available shadow, if there's no shadow for, say, 22.6 end, then show the one of 22.7 by another player. Doesn't affect leaderboard placements.
    4- I'd like to hear a single concrete example of what map and/or leaderboard could be affected by such a thing.

    i know i'm looking very forward in the future but i just really want you guys to understand how important it is to NOT touch legit times on leaderboards before you even start working on an update
     
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  8. Ezzerland

    Ezzerland Staff Member Manager

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    Why, exactly, is it important?
    Since most of your logic seems to be based on this, I'll just address it. First, your statement should say it should only reset the LB if the changes make the fastest times impossible. Because if faster routes can be found, then the top times are now meaningless and therefore a reset doesn't matter. Right?

    Right now, we have maps that already have had changes that make their top times impossible (for example, Eroded).

    There's only a small handful of players on the top that have proof of their times. The rest of them don't. Three of the players that record their gameplay or have top records have already either directly told me or strongly indicated they're okay with times being removed/reset. So if top, competitive players actually would want this, why do you believe it's the worst possible outcome?
    For most of this, the answer can be the same. Having new features, like a message that tells you when you hit a checkpoint how far behind your PR or the WR you are at this point in the map (or some indicator, I just made this idea up as of this second), would be "stupid" if you don't have the ability to quote stamps from the actual records. If you can't race the best time, that defeats the idea of "NEW FEATURE TO ALLOW RACING BEST TIMES!" when bragging about cool updates, right? I think that feature would be badass, btw. idk if it's even feasible resource-wise. But why would we settle for "this is as close as we can get you" when we can get you the actual best?
    Want more what ifs?

    What if there were some kind of payout for parkour to instigate initial competition? Congrats, all the top players either don't play or set the record 3 years ago and you don't even have a chance, even if you're muff himself!

    Rating system? Doesn't change LB's you say? What if it's based on LB's and a bunch of the top times are from people we could have caught with the new AC methods that didn't exist before and now you have false high rated players?

    Can we just not argue about infinite possibilities?
    I'll mark this thread (and subsequently those) as to read/re-read when investigating parkour.

    Edit - LOL. Just read your suggestions and I've had the same thoughts. I even wrote this before seeing it, so, just, LOL. gg.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
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  9. hmj

    hmj вечная весна Donator

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    I've always considered myself a leaderboard enthusiast -- i'm a moderator on cyberscore, i'm a speedrunner and i've always found a huge importance in leaderboard integrity. it brings people together, stirs activity and brings a common goal for people to improve world high scores. it's a sense of how it brings communities and people together and makes them work together to achieve this common goal of improving records. when speaking with players like muffin_mobber, rycerz and so on, you really understand that this is also very applicable to j&h. by removing those historical times, you make that long-term community goal, say, 22.5 on end, a "final goal" that many people put hours upon hours into achieving get lost in time, like tears in the rain. the importance lies in how this is a community goal that many minds put hours into trying to achieve, a massive "project" of some sort, an art of perfection, to bring the records down as low as they can possibly get. what if, tomorrow, the Super Mario 64 speedrunning leaderboard moderators decided to completely remove the 70 Star leaderboard category, and start anew with all old runs being ineligible? it would make no sense & would completely remove a big part of history and a large common effort. it's basically that, but on a smaller scale.
    I don't know what the situation is with Eroded, but if the WR is no longer possible there for whatever reason but is still on the LB, then please go right ahead and reset the LBs there.
    The leaderboards here have always been based on mutual trust between the community rather than everyone requiring proof - something that has been proven to work in many cases (this is the system we use on cyberscore). i still think that even if these players may be ready for a LB reset, it should still be thought of twice, because of all the reasons i stated below the first quote. i can also tell you that i have spoken to (i reckon, other) top level players who record evidence of their runs that do not feel so "comfortable" with times being removed. it's not about the top players being fine with it, it's about being fine with it as a community and deciding to abandon this part of history mutually. the top players shouldn't have more of a say in it than you or me.
    you seem to be missing my whole point. if the record on end after a reset is 22.7, then it's not the "actual best". if it's not a 22.567, then it's not the "actual best". no matter what. of course, this world record does not have split times saved in the system but it was still achieved and it still is the "actual best", as you say. there would be no other way to deal with this than to put the split times as either N/A, or use a slower run. but it just makes no sense for the 22.567 to be removed from the LB because it WAS achieved and it IS the best time. same goes for any time achieved legitimately, top or not. eventually, someone may tie or beat the record, and then splits will be available. but until then, the real "best" should stay on top of the LB. maybe put it in a different color in the LB to indicate it being done before the parkour revamp, but there's no point in removing it. i don't know what that would achieve.
    put a different color for times achieved before and after reset, in the worst case. a payout should definitely not be the reason we reset the leaderboard Lmao
    and if you really want a payout then what i think would be even COOLER is have a competition for who will be the first to legitimately beat the old WRs in every map! have a bounty on those super optimized WRs. a whole new squad of players grinding easy maps that are already super optimized to bring the record down even further. if that's not cool i dunno what is
    remove the end and jungle WRs and i can assure you that all the other WRs are legitimately possible. (kind of a stretch, would need double checking, but you get what i mean.) regardless, an AC is never perfect no matter what.

    in case you want to give me other "possibilities", i will keep giving you proof that it is feasible and even advantageous to keep the old leaderboards. i am this convinced that removing them is a bad idea for the time being. i don't want this to become that, but if it has to, i am ready to argue with you. please just take my ideas into consideration and try to understand my POV

    i dunno. let's just try making them fun instead of dumping them away.
     
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  10. 195O

    195O Donator

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    WRs are hard to get. If they're legit, then they deserve to stay.
     
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  11. Ezzerland

    Ezzerland Staff Member Manager

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    I linked muff to this thread for his input. Feel free to link others. I'm curious :)

    Also, please don't publicly hackusate.
     
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  12. Trevor

    Trevor Builder Donator

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    like you would know, there are a lot of times that look very hacked, but not enough proof to remove them. like jerome said, jungle and end wrs aren't possible to most of the speed running community on the server.
     
  13. hmj

    hmj вечная весна Donator

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    It's not hackusating. You can get lagged times, and this is most likely what happened with Jungle. That doesn't change the fact that the two times are literally unachievable.
     
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  14. Apex_SkyShadow

    Apex_SkyShadow My Doggo & Pupper = Best Doggo & Pupper Combo Staff Member Mod+

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    But isn't this... exactly what happens in every other gamemode with a reset? Most other ones aren't even given a reference to the veterans of the game. Take Skyblock and Creative from their last resets for example. The Kitpvp, Prison, and Oitc previous leaderboards now just don't exist anymore.

    Or, another idea, have two separate leaderboards for each map. One pre-reset, the other post-reset.
     
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  15. hmj

    hmj вечная весна Donator

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    please re-read my posts on this thread and you'll understand my point.
    furthermore, why have 2 leaderboards when you need to do the EXACT SAME thing to get a high score? overkill & dumb
     
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  16. Ezzerland

    Ezzerland Staff Member Manager

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    There is a way to deal with it. In fact, a number of ways to deal with it. Could have it at a non-numbered spot as best known time until beaten, but still not count toward leaderboard. Could have it as a sign as Top times from past reset. I'm sure there's a number of ways to immortalize a time without it being on the current lb. It also doesn't sound like you are interested in saving the lb's so much as saving the top recorded proven times. But what about the others?
    Well, I understand your sentiment, but this statement is wrong. How you get to the top on OITC didn't change when it updated. Same for kitpvp or any other server. It resets for a fresh start to re-invigorate the community to try anew. A new best record. A new top record.

    btw, we're still discussing all of this without even considering that a parkour reset may not happen or that lb's are even being impacted. It's all speculation, lol.
     
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  17. hmj

    hmj вечная весна Donator

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    i don't understand what exactly doesn't work about the suggestion i gave in the paragraph you quoted. furthermore, the recorded times is actually not what i'm worried about; there's a reason why i made the speedrun.com leaderboard in 2017. all (well, most of, we need to add the new ones & i will do that when darkstorm reinstates my mod rank on the LB) those runs are archived and immortalized in a way.
    what worries me even more is every other run that may not have recorded evidence to be deleted. as i said, the leaderboards are based on mutual trust (i.e. should muffin get an insane time in a map, we would likely not even question it because we trust him). all those effort as players to get those good times (even without evidence), building trust & etc should not go to waste. also, what's this old separate leaderboard about? if we wanna keep this old top 10 immortalized somewhere, why not just let it be in the leaderboard and let it progress naturally from there?
    i can't believe i actually have to explain this
    most wins in kitpvp is about getting MOST WINS. it's about winning games and accumulating your wins over time. a reset of this means a new season, a new era, a new community, etc.

    a high score leaderboard is about pushing yourself and a category to its limits, finding small optimizations and inherently pushing something to a point where it becomes challenging for you or anyone else to beat. these should NOT ever be reset unless a core change in the game or a rule change INVALIDATES old high scores. and sometimes, old times are even grandfathered despite being invalidated by a new rule (i.e. when cheese05's 1:38:51 120 Star SM64 time was kept on the leaderboards despite doing a trick that had been decided to be banned after). i am not saying that this is what should happen but it is done and should show that the integrity of old times matters.
    yes. this is important to me and i don't want the leaderboards to reset, even if it's "all speculation".
     
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  18. Smg

    Smg Retired | ❤12-27-16❤ | Donator

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    If they reset the times, can't something be done about creating a makeshift leaderboard that shows all the former (current) times? That way they aren't forgotten, and new people are given chances to get on the new leaderboard

    I know OITC has this (or had it)

    Could just be one of those armor stands, letter boards that you can flip through. Have one for all difficulties
     
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  19. hmj

    hmj вечная весна Donator

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  20. Smg

    Smg Retired | ❤12-27-16❤ | Donator

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    to encourage dif people to play and get times on the leaderboards? The current times have been up for years; most of the maps have been perfected, so why would anyone even want to try if there's just simply no use?

    I see a legacy leaderboard as a win win for both sides. New speedrunners are given chances to get on the boards, and people with previous world records still can have their times be recognized
     
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